Clare Past Forum

I can find Griffith valuation records for Gortlurkaun, Crusheen County Clare for 1855, but I cant find a corresponding area in the tithe Applotment books for earlier dates.
Did Gortlurkaun have another name previously?
When I went into the tithe Applotment records I pressed the" looking for location names" ;then selected County Clare, then Inchicronan, then no Crusheen or Gortlurkaun came up.
Any clues please??
Hoping someone might be able to help me
Thankyou

Hi JPotter,

Indeed I don't blame you for having difficulty! The parish is usually called Crusheen, but it was the parish of Inchicronan. And Gortlurkaun is transcribed as "Gurth*lane. There is only one name listed for the townland, i.e. Pat Griffy and partners: https://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalar ... _00232.pdf.
This is frustrating, as we know from the Field Name Books (notes made in the 1840s during of the mapping Ireland) that there were 16 tenants living there (see below). By the time Griffiths Valuation was published in 1856, the number of tenants was down to 11, which is still a large number given the size of the townland (90 statute acres).
The population of Gortlurkaun went from 99 in 1841, to 44 in 1851, to 12 in 1911. The number of occupied houses went from 18, to 12, to 3.

Sheila

* The Parish of Inchicronan (Crusheen), by Thomas Coffey (Ballinakella Press, Whitegate, Co. Clare. 1993), gives the field notes for Gurtlurkaun on p. 41:
Gurtlurkaun:
Proprietor: The heir of the late Walter Butler, Esq.
Agent: Pierce Carrig Esq., Ennis.
Let to 16 occupying tenants at will, from 17s[hillings] to £1 yearly rent. County Cess from 3 s[hillings] to 3s 4d[pence] per acre. Tithes 6d. per acre.
Size of farms, 3 to 10 acres. Soil, rocky and part redish light clay. Usual crops, wheat, oats, barley and potatoes. Bog, scarce.
Prevailing names: Griffy and McNamara.
Two forts in this townland.
Authority: Edmund O'Brien, Clooneen. [The name of the person who gave the above information].

Looking through Thomas Coffey's book, I see that, in the 1821 census, "Gurtlenkan" was described as "a hamlet of 11 houses". (p.199)

Thankyou for your explanation Sheila.
I am looking for any evidence for the surname Mcdonnell, Moloney or Kennedy in any earlier tithe records for Gortlurkaun. Margaret Mcdonnell(maiden name Moloney or Kennedy) described as widow appears in the 1855 Griffith Valuation for Gortlurkaun.
The family previously lived in Clashduff, Kilkishen, possibly living on John Mcdonnell's farm. Margarets husband Maurice died in 1847 Clashduff of fever( but this could have been her son). I believe family farm then passed to Michael Ryan whose wife was Mary McDonnell. Michael appears in the 1855 Griffith Valuation. The pool of surnames in Clashduff seem to have been rather stable from the Tithe Applotment records to the Griffith Valuation in 1855.Not like Gortlurkaun
Margarets family appear to have moved to Gortlurkaun between 1847-1855.Why????
Jan

Hi JPotter

The information in a thread under topic-heading “Trying to locate my g/g/father Patrick McDonnell”, posted by Adrian Ingleby in Jun 2010 (https://clarelibraries.ie/localstudies/ ... kaun#p2715), tallies with your information re Margaret McDonnell. Both Gerry Kennedy and Sharon Carberry have provided good information, but I can see why you are wondering what it was that caused Margaret McDonnell to move from Clashduff in Kilkishen to Gortlurkaun in Crusheen/Inchicronan.
However, I am doubting that I will be able to help you. I notice that Margaret’s house (valued £1) and farm (17 acres) are the largest in the townland of Gortlurkaun, and that Margaret is letting a small house (5s) - probably a one-room house - to Mary Torpey and another (5s) to Johanna Brody. I also note that Griffiths Valuation shows no McNamara in Gortlurkaun, despite Edmund O’Brien giving McNamara as one of the two prevailing names there. Did the landlord, Nicholas Butler (of Walterstown in Inchicronan parish), have a hand in the resettlement of Margaret in a farm vacated by the McNamaras? (Pure speculation by me).

Sheila

Thankyou Sheila,
It was worth asking as there may have been something locally going on that was not obvious.
You have given me more than I was able to interpret myself.
Local knowledge, goes a long way.
Jan

Hi JPotter

I see a mistake in Adrian Ingleby’s chart of the family tree: John Burns should be James Burns (transcribed as “Buns” - see record of his marriage to Bridget McDonnell in 1865: https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civ ... 266647.pdf.
James gives his address as Ballycorree, a townland in the parish of Templemaley, often spelled Ballycoree, or Ballycorey. Given that address, it is interesting that the name might be Buns - a misspelling of Bunce - as a John Bunce is mentioned in a newspaper report of a Fenian gathering at Ballycoree in March 1867 - see topic “Six Co. Clare Fenians (I.R.B.) remembered by John Devoy”: https://clarelibraries.ie/localstudies/ ... ilit=Devoy. On page 2 is my transcription of the Clare Journal report published Mon 25 Mar 1867, headed “Important investigation at the County Jail.” The following is just an excerpt from it, which mentions Ballycoree and Bunce:
…in consequence of what Lott Halloran said I went to the Ballycoree bridge; John Maguire met us before we went to Ballycoree; from the timber bridge of Ballycoree we went back to the village of Ballycoree; Maguire said there were more of the Ballycoree men there, and to go back for them; Burns and Maguire knocked at the doors of the houses; they knocked at Michael Macnamara and told the people to get up and dress themselves; they asked for arms; we then went near Martin Flannery; three or four went with us who were not with us before; I only knew two of them – John Bunce and Michael Macnamara; we then went towards Drumcliff church ...

I notice that Michael McDonnell's birth year, in the chart, is given as 1849, which, if correct, is two years later than the death of the Maurice who died of fever in 1847. Michael’s age is not given in the record of his marriage to Anne Mangan in 1869: https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civ ... 192077.pdf, and I’ve failed to find his baptism in the transcription of the O’Callaghan’s Mills parish records (by Sharon Carberry). I don’t know when Michael died and it may be that the birth year of 1849 is based on his age at death. If so, that age may not be correct, as very often the person who reported a death made a fairly good guess as to the age of the deceased. Anyway, I think you are right to allow that the Maurice who died in 1847 might have been Michael’s brother, and not his father. And, anyway, Maurice (the father) must have died sometime before Margaret moved to Gurtlurkaun, otherwise it is he who would have been named as the tenant in Griffiths.

Sheila

Dear Shelia, Thankyou for your continued expertise.
My husband is descended from Mary McDonnell b abt 1809 d 1864( aged 55yrs) Clashduff m to Michael Ryan. Likely the sister of Maurice McDonnell. Both being the children of John McDonnell farmer in Clashduff possibly.
I stumbled onto the 2010 Forum post a few weeks ago. Before this I knew nothing about our Mary McDonnell ;then the pieces of the puzzle started to fall into place as I looked into Maurice’s side.
The forum post was before the transcription for Maurices death in 1847( posted I think in 2016 I think), so they would not have been aware of it then.
Also there was an assumption that Bridget McDonnell b 1840 was not the daughter of Maurice and Margaret Moloney but the daughter of son Maurice. But if you look at the parish records it clearly states the parents were Maurice and Margaret Moloney.
This makes me think that the baptisms for the children of Maurice and Margaret are as follows;
Patrick b 1821-35, Michael b 1821-35 and Bridget b1840 . I think all were born in Clashduff.( could be wrong though)( 1835 being the first baptism record in O'Callaghansmills)
Patrick listing his birth year of 1837 aged 28 yrs on his marriage 1856 ( VIc aust) may have been because his wife was only 23. Reducing the age difference!
Then we have the issue that if Margaret died in 1870 aged 70yrs then her birth year was probably 1800. Which in all probability would make Maurice’s birth year about the same. ? This would make them both around 40 yrs old when Bridget was born. Could they have married later in age or had Margaret been married before and widowed? Making Moloney not her maiden name?
So my husband is not directly connected to Maurices’s side but it was my idea to try and flesh out the McDonnell tree to try and gain more information about this family as a whole.
Once I made the link to John McDonnell being a farmer at clashduff I started looking at the surnames on each of the tithe and Griffith valuation records. The Clashduff tenant names didn’t vary much. Makes me think that Mary McDonnell and husband took over from John. This could also reinforce the idea of Maurice’s death in 1847 before the take over. Maybe eliminating the eldest heir.
I will look at the James Bunce and get back to you. Maybe that is why no further records were found for Bridget and James.

Please let me know if you spot something that is obviously wrong.
Jan

Sheila,
I came across a post in 2007 March 31st , by smcarberry titled" Information is wanted of Thomas Mcnamara, Of Glandree. I think you were involved with other posts related to this. (sorry I dont know how to create a link)
My query is about the list of evicted tenants in 1849 of Clashduff which included Michael Ryan and Widow McDonnell.
Can you possibly tell what the numbers in the brackets after the names mean? Is it the number in the household? eg (Wife,6) does this mean wife + 6 others?
Michael Ryan managed to stay in Clashduff according to the griffith valuation. Interesting to know how if his house was flattened? As per article.
Also The word Widow was used to refer to McDonnell. ; Which would support her husband Maurice's death in 1847. Might explain why she went to Gortlurkaun.
I have no knowledge at all about the eviction and clearance etc?
Good to see that the studderts were referred to as " Good Landlords" As I have descended from them.
I have also sent a personal message to smcarberry assuming I did it correctly.
Jan

SHould have put up the person who had post inn 2007 smcarberry
Sorry

Hi Jan,

I will start with your first reply to the post I made on Sat 6th. Thank you for explaining that your husband is descended from Mary McDonnell who married Michael Ryan and continued to live in Clashduff.
Yes, you are right in thinking that Bridget, who was born about 1840 and married in 1865, was the daughter of Maurice McDonnell and Margaret Moloney*. The record of her marriage makes that clear. It shows that her father was Maurice and her address is Gortlurkaun, which is where she was living with her mother, Margaret, at the time of her marriage.
Margaret McDonnell was about 40 when Bridget was born, and there is nothing surprising about that. Women in Ireland began to give birth in their twenties and continued to give birth until their mid-forties. This resulted in the eldest child being up to 20 years older than the youngest.
Jan, I have been looking at the transcription of the O’Callaghan’s Mills parish records, but have failed find any baptisms of children of Maurice McDonnell and Margaret Moloney. Have you found any of the baptisms? I can see a few baptisms of the children of Michael Ryan and Mary McDonnell, with residence given as Clashduff. Could it be that Maurice and Margaret had moved to some other parish?
Anyway, it is clear that Patrick, Michael and Bridget were their children.

* Was the information as to Margaret’s maiden name (Moloney) found in Australian records, or was it found in some Irish parish record ?

Now I will move on to your second reply, made today. You have looked at the post made by Sharon Carberry on March 6th, 2024 (page 55 of “Information is wanted of Thomas McNamara: https://clarelibraries.ie/localstudies/ ... aid#p15014), in which Sharon gives a list of people evicted in the townland of Clashduff in December 1849 (published in the Clare and Limerick Examiner). My opinion is that the numbers beside the names represent the number of other people evicted from each house - probably mostly children. I see that Widow McDonnell had 3 others evicted with her.
You mention that Michael Ryan’s house was flattened, but sometimes the flattening was confined to the thatched roof. It may be that Michael Ryan managed to make repairs. I’m afraid that, like you, I have no further knowledge of the Clashduff evictions. Fr. Quade brought the evictions to the notice of the editors of newspapers; otherwise there would be even less known about them.

Sheila

Sheila,
The maiden name for Maraget McDonnell( Molony) came from Andrian Ingleby's post in 2010
I think the other children for Margaret and Maurice McDonnell were born before 1835 Clashduff, being the date of the first baptisms recorded in O'Callaghanmills Parish. Michael and Patrick born pre 1835( I could be wrong though)
These posts have been informative. I now know a lot more about the Mcdonnells other than just a name.
Although there is so much more I dont know about Irish history, lots of other things playing a part in our Ancestors lives ;like the evictions.
My husband knew nothing about his Irish heritage, I started by obtaining marriage and death certs, then emigration records gave lots of details.
Thankyou again, much appreciated your input and knowledge.

Regards
Jan

Hi Jan, I am glad to have been of some help. And, yes, Adrian Ingelby was right - Margaret was Margaret Moloney. The record of the baptism of Bridget on Feb 1, 1840, is quite clear: Bridget of Maurice McDonnell and Margaret Moloney. The sponsors are Patrick Moloney and Mary Moloney. The address is Clashduff: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 4/mode/1up. And the next baptism is Bridget of Michael Ryan and Mary McDonnell, Clashduff.

As for the history of Ireland, there is very little to be found regarding what exactly happened to the farms that were left vacant after the famine. There seems to have been no recording of how these were re-tenanted. The general idea is that they were absorbed into the other farms, and, looking at Griffiths Valuation, I can see that that might be what happened with some of the vacant farms in Gortlurkaun: Patrick Tierney’s farm is made up of two plots; Thomas Griffin’s is made up of three plots, and James Clancy’s farm is made up of two plots. I think there must have been another 17 acres left vacant, which was then leased to Margaret McDonnell. The landlords, or more likely, their agents, were keen to get tenants who could be relied on to pay the rent. Some agents represented more than one landlord, and had very many tenants on their books, and were in a position to make an offer to the most suitable tenant. That's as close as I can get to answering your question!

Sheila

Wow Sheila. I hadnt put two and two together!!!The girls being next to each other in the baptism record.
I can account for 5 children for Michael Ryan and Mary McDonnell. 2 girls emigrated in 1855 to Australia. Tracking all Ryan children but one left in Ireland, Catharine b 1846 who married Patrick Ryan in 1861 Oatfield. They had a daughter Elizabeth b 1865 KIlkishen. ( I can find no trace of her after this)
The Ryan surname of this line seems to have ended , the last remainders seemed to have stayed on the farm till around 1959 . There appears to have been no issue to follow with the name " Ryan". I have followed other surnames that have descended from the Ryans though.
Do you know if Sharon Carberry is still around ? Her last post was apparently 2024.
Jan

Hi Jan
I did some searching for Elizabeth Ryan, but have given up. I see the records of her birth giving her parents as Pat Ryan and Catherine Ryan and the address as Clashduff: https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civ ... 49011x.pdf. And see the record of her baptism, on 20 Feb 1865, in Sharon Carberry’s transcription and in the O’Callaghan’s Mills parish register: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 0/mode/1up. So she did exist!
I did not expect to find a civil record of the marriage of Patt Ryan and Catherine Ryan as registration did not begin until 1864, so I looked at the parish records, assuming that Catherine was married in the O’Callaghan’s Mills parish (which includes Clonlea). I did not confine my search to 1861, but continued right up to 1865, but without success: https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls ... 7/mode/1up. Do you know how the marriage year of 1861 was found?

About Sharon Carberry: yes, there has been no post since 2024, and she is greatly missed. I am hoping that she is just busy working on some research - she is interested in the life of Rev. Patrick Quade/Quaid, and might be continuing her research on him.

Sheila

Here is the image,( Hope it attached)
i looked myself and could not find it on Irish geneology.
I am thinking I had a lovely man called George Ryan from Dublin who helped me navigate irish records and find some for me. He may have found it? where ??
I joined Matt to the Gedmatch Ryan group to see if there were any Ryan DNA connections. NOt much luck there but George answered me and offered to help.
Jan