Quilty & Kirby family

[alphonsus]

Hello from a newby to this forum.

I am endeavouring to find some information on my gg grandfather John QUILTY who according to the 1871 Liverpool census was born 1835 in Clare.

My first knowledge of him is 1845 living in Bridge St. Killaloe with Patrick KIRBY then again in 1853 & 1855 still living in Bridge Street and still with Patrick KIRBY a butcher. This must be his father in law as I know Ann’s father was a butcher named Patrick.

There is a marriage for John in 1852 to Ann KIRBY (father Patrick) in Killaloe. I have also found three children born to John & Ann in Killaloe - John 1854, Maria 1856 & Patrick 1857, being Catholic I would have thought there might be more than three between the marriage date 1852 and the next child born in Dublin in 1861 but haven’t found any as yet. After Killaloe I know John and family moved to Dublin then to Liverpool. My grandfather James Joseph was born in Liverpool in 1868. Neither John (1854) nor Patrick (1857) appear in Liverpool with the family so they may have died but have not found deaths for them. Three more children were born in Dublin, Edward (1861), Honora (1864-1864) and Joseph (1867-1867)

Can anyone help with my search or point me in the right direction as to where I may be able to get more information on the QUILTY and/or the KIRBY family?

Also on the Killaloe parish register for the wedding of John & Ann it only gives their names and the names of two witnesses... would a marriage certificate give me more information as to the name and or profession of John’s father?

It has been a real struggle to get this meagre bit of information so any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in anticipation.

[smcarberry]

I have some general observations to make, which may or may not be new to you. I have been doing East Clare research for 20 years although my need to know Killaloe has been very limited. I have gotten the impression that my part of the area (Kilkishen, on the Tulla side) had not much to do with Killaloe in the early to mid 1800s.

However my Carberry research has extended to the spelling Kerby, which led to seeing that as a typical spelling of Kirby in some places. Kirby was common in Limerick, but not so much in Clare. So, I suggest researching in Limerick databases, and using ample variations of spellings for both Kirby and Quilty - think in terms of sounds, not consonants. Remember to try the online newspaper sources, and you have the benefit of English records, everyone of which should be tracked down and reviewed.

Images of BMD entries will soon be online for the years you need. It is always good practice to view the original entry, just to see if any side note was made, beyond the required info.

Good luck with that,
Sharon Carberry

[alphonsus]

Thanks Sharon for your response. Regarding the KIRBY name I have looked at different spellings and in other areas other than Killaloe/Clare. As the information I have regarding this particular family is so meagre even trying different spellings has not been a help. As for my gg grandfather John QUILTY again the info is very scant but everything I have found apart from one birth in Dublin has the spelling QUILTY. One very big problem I have regarding him is that the family have always said that he was from Alsace Lorraine and went to live in Ireland where he married Ann then moved over to England before my grandfather was born in 1868. If this is the case then he either picked a name out of a hat or changed his name to fit the country, that was why I wondered whether or not the marriage certificate would have his father's name on it as the parish register does not.

Shame I hit a brick wall which seems to be insurmountable!

thanks Virginia

[smcarberry]

Assuming this family was Catholic, there was no civil registration of RC marriages prior to 1864 and thus no certificate of one for the 1852 wedding.

Arrival of your Quilty ancestor from Alsace Lorraine circa 1850 would have been very unusual. The movement of people from the West of Ireland was in the opposite direction at that time, due to the aftermath of the famine years of the late 1840s. You can research whether there was some exceptional situation that existed in Killaloe. Keep alert to an occupation that may have allowed your Quilty to have the means to travel around at will. Was he a man of some wealth, or a sailor, or a skilled craftsman like a watchmaker ?

My knowledge of Killaloe families is limited, but isn't Quilty a rare surname there ? If you suspect a surname change, perhaps an autosomal DNA test could provide clues by showing who your distant cousins are (no instant knowledge unless your research has already gone back 150 years, for all the 3rd cousins which will be listed in a general group of both paternal and maternal lines).

Perhaps on a trip to Dublin you can stop off at the National Library or the National Archives to do the free gen. consultation. First, though, I would collect every possible English record on your Quilty, to see if any list his birthplace.

S.M. Carberry

[alphonsus]

Hi again
The family are definitely RC as both the marriage/baptisms in Ireland and subsequent births in England were all RC. So I guess there will be no way of me finding a father's name for him. Finding J QUILTY was a bit of a fluke really it was only because I saw him living with Patrick KIRBY in Killaloe that I knew I had the right family as I was 100% sure that he had married Ann KIRBY in Ireland before settling in Liverpool. The Alsace connection I have always wondered about as I thought it would be unlikely for a person from France to go to Ireland unless of course there was some problem that forced the move. John QUILTY was a craftsman he was a marble polisher, in Liverpool I have found notices in local newspapers of him selling pieces of marble. Two of his sons (my great grandfather included) became master stonemasons. Sadly, John died in 1873 in Liverpool.
You are correct about the name QUILTY is not a terribly common name in Ireland not just Clare nor is it common in the UK. That said it has still been very difficult to trace my family even with that uncommon name.
I live in England and don't go to Ireland that much. When I did go my research was fruitless because at that time I only knew (from the 1871 UK census) that John QUILTY gave his birthplace as Clare which was too broad so I found nothing.
Once again thanks for your input.
regards Virginia

[Jimbo]

Hi Virginia,

Many Alsatian immigrants traveling in family groups (including my great great great grandparents with their eight children) came to America in the mid 19th century for two reasons (1) cheap land available in the Midwest and (2) to avoid mandatory military service at the age of 18. Especially, veterans of the Napoleonic Wars might want to avoid the military service for their sons. Unfortunately, given their timing many of these French born children would find themselves fighting in the American Civil War.

After the German victory in the 1870 Franco Prussian War, Alsace and Lorraine was ceded by France to Germany. About 1872, the French citizens living in Alsace & Lorraine (also those who had already left to nearby Vosges and other parts of France) had to decide whether to declare allegiance to France (and move there if they hadn't already) or stay put and became de facto German citizens. Those who left were "Les Optants" and many of these Alsatians moved to America and also Algeria in the 1870's.

Your Jean Quilty if indeed born in France about 1835 may have gone to Ireland to avoid mandatory military conscription (I believe it was for about 7 years). But I agree with Sharon a bit odd to leave France for County Clare. Also, the 1871 Census in Liverpool has him born in County Clare?? Are there any records at all that your gg grandfather was born in France or his children had a father born in France? By any chance did your grandparents pronounce "sink" as "zink"?

If you want to explore the France option, then check ancestry.com website (free at most public libraries) and there is an index for the "Les Optants" of 1872. Although your Quilty was already in Ireland you are trying to research surnames similar to Quilty to obtain their birth town (naissance). A lot of French surnames do start with "Q", but I believe "Quilty" is an Irish surname?

If you get lucky with this approach, French records are excellent and you should easily get back to the 1600's especially if they are not from a large city. My ancestors stayed in the same small village for centuries and only married outside it with the invention of the bicycle.

Now each department in France appears to be in competition to get their records digitized and available free on-line. Here is link the department of Bas-Rhin where many Alsatian immigrants came from. Each marriage record (whether Catholic or civil record after the French Revolution) can be about one page long and nearly provide a full family tree within each record. But you'll first need to find the commune where your ancestors are from as there is no index on the website (although each commune has an index "tables decianelles").

http://archives.bas-rhin.fr/registres-p ... tat-civil/

Reviewing these French records might be somewhat depressing for Irish researchers.

[alphonsus]

Hello
Thanks very much for the latest information about my QUILTY. I have been away for a few days so could not reply. To be honest I had pretty much given up on trying to find out whether or not John QUILTY was from Alsace Lorraine because I don't have a surname for him which is French. I have absolutely no idea on how to pursue the French line without a viable name for him. I had looked in the past but needle and haystack spring to mind. I thought that perhaps I could build on the scant information I have of him while he was in Ireland. As I said he died in 1873 in Liverpool and his wife Ann KIRBY remarried, most of their children died or have disappeared so I have been unable to find them. As my grand father James Joseph QUILTY died in 1912 not that much is known about him either. As for the Alsace connection I can only think that it was him that told his children that his father was French. The only hint might be that the family where quite swarthy looking with black hair and strangely when dad was younger people did ask whether or not he was French.
I also wondered whether there was a register in the Griffiths Valuation that listed the other members of a household living at a particular address? John QUILTY seems to have lived with is father in law Patrick KIRBY the butcher for several years some of the time when he was married to Ann and had children. Is that possible?
Thanks again for the help.
regards Virginia

[pj.culligan]

Here's a link to some Quilty marriages in Tipperary & Limerick etc. Killaloe & Tipperary are linked by a bridge across the Shannon, if you walk across the bridge from Killaloe you are in Ballina Tipperary. https://familysearch.org/search/collect ... id=1584964 . You could try searching in Tipperary.

[alphonsus]

Hello and thank you for that tip and link to Ballina in Tipperary. I had previously looked there as well as other parts of Ireland but was never sure of anything I found. However, what I had found not actually for a QUILTY but a birth for Honora KIRBY with a father Patrick KIRBY in 1834 in Ballina. That might well be my great grandmother as Patrick KIRBY and John QUILTY lived together for some time over in Killaloe. The dates and location fit so I think that could be her. I then looked for any other children born in either Tipperary or Clare to Patrick and his wife Mary DWYER but so far have not found any nor have found a marriage for them. While I am not 100% confident that this little bit of information I have found is correct it more than I had a couple of weeks ago. Thank you again for all of your help.

regards Virginia